Curse

Desert Rose · Sep 29, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

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Originally Posted by M @ T

What is your point exactly? How does this have got to with Warriors being balanced or not?

Was a answer to this:

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you can show that FoC / CoP / RoJ / whatever (...) leads to faster times than massing physicals (...)

M @ T · Sep 29, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Was a answer to this:

My bad sorry mate

.

draxynnic · Sep 29, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

What's the difference between Warriors being overpowered and the PvE skills they use being overpowered?

Simply put: What you nerf. Asuran Scan, sure. Save Yourselves, sure. Strength of Honor... not a PvE skill, but I will agree that it DOES look a little high in its current PvE form. FGJ... is possibly catching too much in the net.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@draxynnic - I don't think you appreciate just how much consistent DPS a fleshed-out physical-based team can do. Perhaps you should look at it first-hand. A few physicals, Strength of Honor, Judge's Insight (maybe), Honor ward (maybe), Orders (maybe). Lots of characters to remove antimelee with. If you can't do this kind of build then leave me your IGN so I can contact you next time I play something like this.

Tempting. I need a black widow for my HoM...

On the whole, though, I'm not sure how relevant I'd consider it, since my main line of thought is that I don't see nerfing a style of play across all team builds because one highly coordinated and synergistic team build is powerful is really being fair to the majority of players that don't do so.

And certainly, thinking over the different professions and referring back to the original subject, I would consider the Warrior to be fairly midline in its power level - possibly because it's one of the baselines - as well as being well-balanced in that you can succeed by playing as a Warrior, as opposed to Assassins succeeding as permasins, Elementalists succeeding by pretending to be Monks, and Mesmers achieving a level of success as mass assassin summoners.

madriel222 · Sep 29, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

What makes warriors perfectly balanced is that in order to perform up to their potential they require the help of teammates. Put Mark of Pain, Barbs, Orders, and Strength of Honor in the hand of your teammates and that's not mindless overpowered play, that's team synergy.

Life Bringing · Sep 29, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Recalling Perma tanks ...

I prefer comparing builds that don't include Shadow Form. Try Obsidian tanking vs. the times given in this thread, for example: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10403204

I don't really care what you prefer to compare. DoA is done tank and spank, especialy in HM where gloom is lolphysicals. I leave you with this though. http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/pv...tterflames.jpg

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@Improvavel - I agree with you that ER Elementalists are overpowered. But they exist. You have to compare the sum total of everything, not just the single case.

Shadow Form. it's overpowered, but itsthere. You contradict yourself.

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If you can show that FoC / CoP / RoJ / whatever, plus a non-Perma tank, plus killing all the stuff that leads to the booty (not running through) and not splitting (since most teams do not split) leads to faster times than massing physicals then I'll concede I'm wrong. I'd also say no 600s, but then I suppose 600s is a reasonable way of playing in some areas like CoF where they do not actually skip anything (but not DTSC).

I'm confused here, but the general feeling I'm getting is that you want a caster team to play shitterway, while your physical team gets to do w/e. Go ahead and use all that shit with your phys team. You can't limit it because it's part of the game.

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Originally Posted by qvtkc

lol no

Ok, maybe in DoA, though wasn't there some devilishly efficient paragon team for that?

I invite you to beat 12 minute deep, 34 min DoA, 14 min FoW, or 15 min Urgoz without tank and spank. Also, gl with the cave in gloom in HM

Jeydra · Sep 29, 2009, 05:25 PM // 17:25

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Simply put: What you nerf. Asuran Scan, sure. Save Yourselves, sure. Strength of Honor... not a PvE skill, but I will agree that it DOES look a little high in its current PvE form. FGJ... is possibly catching too much in the net.

In which case, we agree.

I think in PvE every class should be able to deal damage. If the calculations I gave on the previous page are accepted, then 100 DPS is a good if rather high baseline. So an unsupported Warrior should deal 100 DPS in practice - not to the Master of Damage - while a supported Warrior should deal more than 200 DPS (the DPS of the Warrior + the person supporting him = 200, plus a little bit more for team synergy). There're more variables in this of course, the most important one being how many Warriors / physicals can one person support. If the answer is 2, then Warrior DPS should be decreased accordingly (to slightly more than 150 DPS = 100 x 3).

That's the utopian vision. Perma and ER Eles will have to be evaluated some other way, although I'll say here I think both templates are overpowered.

@Life Bringing + Desert Rose - it's a good point, so I'll give you this. The DoA run you posted (as well as the Deep run Desert Rose posted) is an SC. There are some hallmarks of SCs, such as you split (hence the Recall / Shadow Meld), you do not kill all monsters (e.g. Slaver's SC is just running to the boss and killing him), you have very specific builds (e.g. in a typical team you can swap out Monks for ER Eles for N/Rt's if you so desire, but you can't swap out the Perma in the DoA SC if you so desire). And so on.

I restrict myself to PvE outside of SCs. If you want to keep arguing SCs, up to you, but I should point out that if you do you'll have to argue that Warriors are grossly underpowered since Shadow Form tanks tank everything better than Warriors in a situation where running, splitting, shadowstepping and such rule (and don't bring up the Deep screenshot because although I'm not experienced at SCs I'm pretty sure Assassins > Warriors in almost all areas).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I'm confused here, but the general feeling I'm getting is that you want a caster team to play shitterway, while your physical team gets to do w/e. Go ahead and use all that shit with your phys team. You can't limit it because it's part of the game.

You're free to use whatever team you want and play however you want, so long as it includes 1) no physicals (since that's the point under contention) 2) is not an SC. Since SCs are not clearly defined I proposed the hallmarks as given. I also propose to match times given by the Duncan thread simply because it's already been done, so there's no need to redo and take /age. If you can think of better hallmarks, say so. If you think this is avoiding the point, then we're pretty much done because we're coming from different viewpoints.

PS: Gloom is, off the top of my head, the only area in the game with an unremovable, debilitating effect on physicals, which kinda makes it unique don't you think?

Desert Rose · Sep 29, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think in PvE every class should be able to deal damage.

Deal damage != DPS.
Three to four casters that can spike down dozens of monsters within few seconds makes physicals double/triple DPS laughable.

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That's the utopian vision.

Why should anyone still use melees then?

Improvavel · Sep 30, 2009, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: Gloom is, off the top of my head, the only area in the game with an unremovable, debilitating effect on physicals, which kinda makes it unique don't you think?

Even in normal mode, without the environmental effect, it isn't particularly easy for a physical heavy team.

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I think in PvE every class should be able to deal damage.

Actually it is because the only way to do stuff in PvE is by damage and not disruption+damage that the game is the joke it is (compared to how it could be with somewhat better AI, better mob builds and less idiot HM implementation).

On the other hand I guess the mobs are there to be killed and nobody really wants a mob that takes 5 minutes to die.

qvtkc · Sep 30, 2009, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I invite you to beat 12 minute deep, 34 min DoA, 14 min FoW, or 15 min Urgoz without tank and spank. Also, gl with the cave in gloom in HM

14 min FoW

admittedly that was mixed, not pure physicals.

The rest I have no idea of how to do. How do you even reach Kanaxi in 12 minutes, let alone kill him? And no DoA is obviously retarded so that doesn't count. The gloom cave works perfectly fine though.

draxynnic · Sep 30, 2009, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

In which case, we agree.

I think in PvE every class should be able to deal damage. If the calculations I gave on the previous page are accepted, then 100 DPS is a good if rather high baseline. So an unsupported Warrior should deal 100 DPS in practice - not to the Master of Damage - while a supported Warrior should deal more than 200 DPS (the DPS of the Warrior + the person supporting him = 200, plus a little bit more for team synergy). There're more variables in this of course, the most important one being how many Warriors / physicals can one person support. If the answer is 2, then Warrior DPS should be decreased accordingly (to slightly more than 150 DPS = 100 x 3).

I probably would put unsupported melee professions at a higher baseline then ranged professions because of factors that have been described (more easily countered, have to be in contact). Maybe not so high as currently achievable through Asuran Scan, but...

Bobby2 · Sep 30, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

So this is what this entire thread amounts to? Scan QQ?

Jeydra · Oct 01, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Why should anyone still use melees then?

Why wouldn't they? If the baseline DPS in practice (that is, counting all the snares and antimelee and time to switch targets etc) is equal then one could always switch out one DPS source for another with no drawback. Sure there'd be some peculiarities (e.g. using physicals in Shards of Orr is going to be hard) but other than that, nothing much gained or lost by switching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

On the other hand I guess the mobs are there to be killed and nobody really wants a mob that takes 5 minutes to die.

Then pump up caster damage to match buffed physicals, probably?

Desert Rose · Oct 01, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why wouldn't they?

Cause it's harder but offers no additional reward.

Neither physicals need to get nerfed nor caster need to get buffed because casters already can catch up with physicals killing speed.

Life Bringing · Oct 02, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

14 min FoW

admittedly that was mixed, not pure physicals.

The rest I have no idea of how to do. How do you even reach Kanaxi in 12 minutes, let alone kill him? And no DoA is obviously retarded so that doesn't count. The gloom cave works perfectly fine though.

14 minute fow in HM? No tank n spank? GL.
Deep
DoA
Urgoz
FoW is actually 13 lol

Anyways, tank and spank has absolutely dominated any physicalway records. There is no comparison.

Jeydra · Oct 02, 2009, 08:31 AM // 08:31

@Desert Rose - why is it harder?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

14 minute fow in HM? No tank n spank? GL.
Deep
DoA
Urgoz
FoW is actually 13 lol

Anyways, tank and spank has absolutely dominated any physicalway records. There is no comparison.

In which case, why haven't I seen you arguing that Warriors are underpowered and should be buffed so physicalway can match tank and spank?

By the way I await your screenshots from a non-SC case.

qvtkc · Oct 02, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

14 minute fow in HM? No tank n spank? GL.
Deep
DoA
Urgoz
FoW is actually 13 lol

Anyways, tank and spank has absolutely dominated any physicalway records. There is no comparison.

Umm those pics show you using cons though

Tenebrae · Oct 02, 2009, 10:19 AM // 10:19

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Originally Posted by qvtkc

Umm those pics show you using cons though

Feel free to use them , still havent seen yours and also seen none from this guy ...

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

In which case, why haven't I seen you arguing that Warriors are underpowered and should be buffed so physicalway can match tank and spank?

By the way I await your screenshots from a non-SC case.

Because not being overpowered =\= being underpowered ? lol .
Btw still waiting to see yours. Waiting from a non-SC case ? that was absurd , those screens are trying to proove that non phys are faster , if SC are done with no physicals that is the REAL proof.
And once again , btw , deep has W , urgoz and the rest has none .Dont be mistaken again , optimal group for an specific elite area doesnt equal ALWAYS an SC. Your complains about screenshots seem non sense to me .... even more when you showed none about phys ways.

Jeydra · Oct 02, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Since physicalway is so much slower than tank and spank obviously physicals are underpowered at dealing damage. True?

I've already given screenshots. You just either haven't been reading posts or do not acknowledge them. Yes I'm waiting for non-SC case because I've specifically restricted myself to PvE outside of SCs. I've given traits that I feel are inherent to SCs. If you can beat physicalway times without any of those traits, let me know. Take me on a run even, that's the clearest for me to see.

You are coming very close to being an outright troll by the way; if you prefer to end up on ignore like some other people already are, be my guest.

Life Bringing · Oct 02, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Your conditions are downright stupid jeydra. I invite you to show a screen with only physicals. No casters. Monks are casters.

Tbh, warriors could probably use a buff. Sins and dervs can easily pump out more damage than a warrior. Ofc, it's probably more that scythes and dagger shit is op, but might as well bring warriors to equal standings. It IS pve after all.

As for SCs, there's a reason that casters are used. They have a large number of high damage, armor ignoring AoE spike skills. Physicals lack these skills.

Jeydra · Oct 03, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

You want to try non-damage-dealing-physicals then?

By the way since SCs are so much faster with casters than physicals, then Sins and Dervs need buffs as well, at least for their damage aspects. Yes?